NSCA’s Coaching Podcast, Episode 44: Robert Panariello

Robert Panariello, Chief Clinical Officer with Professional Physical Therapy and the Professional Athletic Performance Center, talks to the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) Head Strength and Conditioning Coach, Scott Caulfield, about education in the field, being a well-rounded coach to excel or compliment your career, and key things to remember in the strength and conditioning field.

Find Scott on Twitter: @scottcaulfield

“Doing something not for the monetary value, but for the rewarding experience.” 9:24

“The exercise in relation to physical therapy really put me on the map in regards to publications or lecturing because I think we were doing things that a lot of people weren’t doing.” 9:45

“I think it’s real important to make you roll up your sleeves and get into areas that you’re into to dig deep.” 10:37

“It’s like anything else, one day you’re an intern you just learn and ten years later you’re a head strength coach.” 11:56

“I think players look for discipline, they want to be coached.” 19:18

“I think you also have to hold people accountable.” 20:18

“Coaching is an art and a wisdom to develop.” 22:38

“Key tenant is relationship building in the industry.” 28:00

Reporting Errors: To report errors in a podcast episode requiring correction or clarification, email the editor at publications@nsca.com or write to NSCA, attn: Publications Dept., 1885 Bob Johnson Dr., Colorado Springs, CO 80906. Your letter should be clearly marked as a letter of complaint. Please (a) identify in writing the precise factual errors in the published podcast episode (every false, factual assertion allegedly contained therein), (b) explain with specificity what the true facts are, and (c) include your full name and contact information.

This is the NSCA's Coaching Podcast, Episode 44.

--exercise in relationship to physical therapy. It really helped me. It really put me on the map in regards to publications or lecturing, because I think we were doing things a lot of people weren't doing back at that time.

This is the NSCA's Coaching Podcast, where we talk to strength and conditioning coaches about what you really need to know but probably didn't learn in school. There's strength and conditioning, and then there's everything else.

Welcome to the NSCA Coaching Podcast. I'm Scott Caulfield, here with Rob Panariello today, CEO of the Professional Physical Therapy and Professional Athletic Performance Center. 152 locations in five states. Rob, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

And we are here at the 41st annual NSCA national conference. If you hear any noise in the background, it's because we are right in the middle of the membership area. There are things going on all around us. How has the conference been for you so far?

It's been great. It's great as usual.

Awesome.

Great to catch up on relationships, great information. You know, the usual.

How long have you been coming to these things?

For a long time. I've been a member over 25 years, so, I don't make every one, but a lot of them.

That's fantastic.

Most of them. Yeah.

Can you remember where the first conference that you ever attended was?

I think it was in Pittsburgh in '84.

OK. Awesome.

And I've been coming ever since.

That's fantastic. I'm going to have to ask you some NSCA history questions at some point here. Couple other fun icebreakers. Let's just kind of get people to know you, a little bit more about you. What was the first car that you ever had?

Pontiac Firebird, 1970. Bought it used.

Nice. That's awesome.

Showing my age in that one.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's super cool. Bet you wish you kept it.

Oh, I do wish I kept it. Yep.

How about-- I ask this to people because I just like to see, not for any other reason, but if you yourself could only do one exercise for the rest of your life-- so not your athletes, you personally-- what would it be? You're only limited to one.

Probably-- only a single exercise, or could I-- I'd probably like to do the Javorek Complex, because you cover a lot.

Sure. Cool.

Pretty good conditioning.

Nice. Yeah.

So probably something like a Javorek Complex.

I like it. I like it. And I know what you're talking about. And hopefully some of the listeners might have to Google Istvan Javorek to look that one up. But super cool stuff. I like it. I like it a lot. How about, what kind of music you listening to these days? What's on the radio?

I've always listened to rock and roll.

Nice.

Yeah. I like variations of other things, but mainly rock and roll.

So I'm guessing you've seen some cool concerts in your day. Best concert you've ever seen in person?

The Who.

Nice.

At Madison Square Garden.

Wow. Awesome. Yeah. Super cool. And, cool, and I'm excited again to have you on the show because, like a lot of our coaches and a lot of our members, you have some incredible diversity in your experience. And we'll get to, I think, eventually, kind of what you're doing now. But you're also a licensed physical therapist, a certified athletic trainer, CSCS. You've worn hats in a number of strength and conditioning coaching roles. Maybe talk a little bit about, first, the education and kind of where you first kind of broke the bread into the industry.

I have two BSes. One's in physical therapy and one's in phys ed athletic training. And then my master's in exercise physiology. And essentially how I broke into the profession "officially," quote unquote, is at the Pittsburgh NSCA conference in '84. Heard Don Chu speak. I went up to him, said, "You know, I'd kind of like to do what you do. You're a strength coach and a physical therapist, an athletic trainer." And he offered me a job.

And I said, "I just started at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York City," and I said, "Let me think about it, because I'm really happy where I am now." And I called him a week later to turn him down, but I said I wanted to stay in touch with him. And that fall he was hired as a consultant at St. John's University to work with their basketball team. And he said, "Spend the week with me." And I did. And I left my card with Coach Carnesecca. And that year they had a pretty good season, but they didn't go all the way. And he just felt that they were weak, they needed a strength coach. He pulled my card out and offered me the job. And that's how I became a strength coach at St. John's, their first strength coach and I stayed for 10 years.

Wow. that's super cool. How much did that physical therapy background help you as a strength coach?

I think they both help each other tremendously, because once someone's done with physical therapy, especially if they're post-operative, you kind of know the things to avoid so you don't exacerbate their condition. But a lot of physical therapy is exercise, right? So if there are certain principles and exercises that create strongest, fastest, most powerful people in the world, even if we have to modify them, why can't we bring that into the clinic? Right? And so they help each other hand-in-hand. It's not that one's more important than the other. They really both provide a nice congruity to each other.

That's cool. Now that's such a key thing to keep in mind, too. You know, it's a synergistic effect. How about, I mean, there was no internet back then. You guys went to a conference once a year. What was like, getting information-- where were you sharing, getting information back then in those days from?

My mentors are Johnny Parker, Al Miller, Al Vermeil, and Don Chu. And it really, as you know, as you go on, it becomes a smaller and smaller circle. And so Don introduced me to Al Vermeil, which was with Al Miller. Johnny Parker was the team physician for the New York Giants. Our hospital took care of the New York Giants. We started squatting our ACLs in '85, '86 as part of the rehab. So I went to see Johnny, because he was a big squat advocate, and we hit it off. And then I just made phone calls or visited people, and through Al Vermeil I met Charlie Francis, and I spent a lot of years with Charlie. And then from Charlie I met Derek Hansen, and the snowball is going downhill. So that's how we did it. Phone calls and physically traveling to visit people.

Right, right. Yeah. And I think that's still-- a lot of people are still really advocating for that. And I mean, granted, social media and email and stuff has been a great way to connect with people, but those in-person visits and stuff like that have been tremendously beneficial.

Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you a great story. Johnny Parker and Al Miller were both high school strength coaches. And Johnny went to visit Al, slept two nights in his Volkswagen Beetle. And when they left, they shook hands and became good friends. And 10 years later they shook hands on the 50-yard line at the Rose Bowl, and they played each other in the Super Bowl. So you just never know.

That's super cool. And you were 10 years at St. John's, strength coach, Division I. Just working on men's basketball, or was there other teams?

It was a Division I school, but we had one AAA football, which was really non-scholarship, Division III. So mainly football, basketball, and baseball. I would work with some other teams, but those were mainly my three teams. And then I had an assistant coach. After my second year we hired an assistant, and they worked with some other teams. And so we just tried to do it the best we could, you know, the two of us.

Cool. Cool. And what were you guys looking for in assistance at that time? You know, what did you look for when you were hiring people?

I looked for some experience. You know, as a physical therapist I've treated a lot of people in prominent positions, CEOs and coaches. And you ask them their perspective of things. And one guy was the president of ESPN, and he told me he looks for people who are intelligent, because you could always teach and you could always gain experience, but you can't gain intelligence. So I think you have to have people that can understand concepts and stuff as well. So that was part of it.

Yeah, that's huge. And then you went on from that to some professional sports, too. What did the St. John's gig kind of snowball into or open doors to?

Well, I stayed at St. John's, and I went to the World League of American Football one year, the New York New Jersey Knights. I was their strength coach. I was at St. John's from '85, '86 to '91 or so. I used to work the off-seasons with the New York Giants with Coach Parker. And then the early 2000s, some physicians I know became the team physicians for a women's professional soccer team who were in desperate need for a strength coach, and they asked me if I would do that. And I worked with the WUSA New York Power, which was a great experience, you know, because it's just specifically working with women and all aspects of women athletes. And I did that for two years. That's the last team I worked with.

And we were talking about that earlier, and you weren't going to retire off that salary.

No. No. But probably the most enjoyable years of my life, really. Experiences.

How important is that, too, you know? Like, doing something that you probably had to make work in your own life, not for the monetary reward, but like you said, that rewarding experience and that experience you just gained working with these females, working with team setting at a professional level?

It was great, especially my years at St. John's, because I do work with some female teams there. But it wasn't exclusive, you know. And it's what we stated before about the exercise in relationship to physical therapy. It really helped me. It really put me on the map in regards to publications or lecturing, because I think we were doing things a lot of people weren't doing back at that time. I don't think a lot of physical therapists were also strength coaches. And so it really helped enhance my career. So the paycheck, so to speak, came later on down the road. But those experiences were valuable to set me up in my career.

Yeah. Cool. We'll talk about that, too. You just touched on it, but-- I didn't read this initially, but you've had over 60 peer-reviewed journal-- scientific journal, strength and conditioning journal, book publications, and lectures. Talk a little bit about writing for journals and stuff like that, and why it's important for strength and conditioning coaches.

Yeah. I think it's real important because it forces you to roll up your sleeves and get into areas where you're interested in, and to dig deep, and not only to investigate the area you're interested in, but when you do a review of the literature, you're going to pick up so much information that you probably weren't aware of on the topic of your interest that you're writing on.

So when I worked at Special Surgery, it was a very academic institution. A lot of publications went out, and that's where I first got my feet wet, doing research with the physicians and then spinning off on my own. And we did a landmark-- I have to consider it a landmark squat study, and it was published in '94. We looked at the Giants and the effect of the squat exercise on knee ligament laxity over a 21-week period of time. And to my knowledge that's the longest period of time someone has reviewed that. And we just want to make sure we weren't doing anything detrimental to the knee. And we weren't. And so it just reinforced, with the tons they were lifting and the high volume they were lifting, it was safe for the knee in regards to a, quote unquote, normal knee. And so those types of things, I think it's very important.

Yeah. And how hard was it, do you know-- was it tough at first to kind of write to that level? And obviously you just kind of adapted and learned more about it.

Yes. It's just like anything else, right? The first day you're an intern, all right, and you just learn. And 10 years later, you may be a head strength coach. And it's just a daily progression of knowledge, experience, skill, et cetera. Yes, same thing.

Yeah. No, that's the same thing I've found. And I haven't been published nearly that much. But in the small times I have, and my mentor, Dr. Gearity, hammered me about it, and he said, "You know, you didn't squat 405 the first time you went in the weight room, either, right? You had to do it over time and build up and kind of get better at it." So I think that was the progression. But for me, too, and I'm sure you'll say the same, then when I got to present on some of these topics that I had written about, it was way easier.

Absolutely.

And so the presentations I was giving, I was like, "Wow. This is actually a better presentation because of that article I wrote about it."

Yeah. And when you write an article, essentially you're the expert for that article. So when you're presenting, I mean, you're in. So you should be very comfortable. And you have a very good knowledge background of that particular subject matter in regards to that article. So, yes. It does make you a better presenter.

Yeah. And so you've worn the strength and conditioning hat, and you are also 2016 NSCA Sports Medicine Rehab Specialist of the Year Award winner. So kind of talk about where you kind of went into-- I mean, I think you'll always consider yourself probably a strength and conditioning coach, as well.

Yes.

But where that morphed from the strength and conditioning position more into, kind of, some of the rehab stuff.

Well, eventually I went into private practice. And so that's really where everything morphed in. Because you had to be a differentiator, right? Because I believe in competition. I think competition is good. It keeps people on their toes, right? And the strength and conditioning, as I said before, that's where it really started to evolve, once I really got into private practice. Also my time at Special Surgery, because the things we wrote and presented on were adapting the strength and conditioning into the rehab. So academically it really happened to me at Special Surgery. As a business person and a professional, it probably really took off when I went into practice.

OK. Yeah. And how did you, you know-- you decided to start your own business. You probably-- I didn't read any business background. No MBAs on your--

No, no MBAs.

--bio, so--

No, I'm an academic person and a coach.

How hard is that, going from academics and coaching to being a business owner?

Well, I was always working as a physical therapist in some capacity. And what happened, I worked for a company called Professional Sports Care, who were acquired by Healthsouth. And then there was a point in time where I said, you know, I've worked for businesses, I've worked in a hospital, I even worked in some private practices to supplement my salary part-time. So I was either going to teach or I was going to go into business. Those were my last two opportunities of uncharted territory. And so I went into business with two other guys, and we each had our strengths and our weaknesses, so I think we complemented each other well. And it worked out pretty well.

Yeah. What are some of the big-- I guess, what would be your biggest suggestions for someone thinking about venturing into that kind of business world on their own, or with a partner or two?

I think with any business venture, not just with physical therapy, you just can't throw something against the wall. You'd better have a very definitive plan of structure, location, finances, a cushion of finances, because you're going to struggle for a little while. And then go out and then follow that plan. And things may get tough for a while. I could tell you, the story we always tell is we put our houses up for collateral. We worked 14 months without a salary. We were down to our last $500 in our bank account, our business bank account, and our personal accounts not much more. And then all of a sudden, all the checks started coming in. And now 20 years later we're 180 facilities in five states and a 20,000-square-foot performance center, where when we started this business, there were three of us. We figured each guy would have a facility. It would be three. So I would not give up on your dream. If you want to go into private practice or a private entity of some sort, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid, but just be smart.

Yeah. Yeah. And how are you managing all of these facilities now? Are you in touch with a lot of them on a regular basis?

For lack of a better word, you have a hierarchy, right? You have vice presidents, regional vice presidents. You have different departments. You have marketing. We have sports medicine. We have a performance center. We have clinical operations. And so you will evolve. You don't go from one to 100, right? You go one to two to three. And so your experiences and your knowledge evolves, just like it does in any other field.

Yeah. And are you looking for something different with the people that you're hiring there? Obviously you're probably looking for some specific from educational certification-type stuff.

I'm definitely looking at experiences in regards to the need. All right? Just like if you were hiring a basketball strength coach, you probably wouldn't hire someone who's a specialist in cycling, right? And so definitely experiences. And then culture. You know, those types of things. I think that's really important. Coach Parcells used to say, take a guy with just a little bit less talent but fits in the locker room. You know, that has the right culture. I think culture is really important.

Yeah, that's huge. You've been around some of those great coaches, too. What kind of things or traits do you think you've taken, really, from some of those people, and developed into your own coaching practice?

Yeah. Probably the three coaches that have been most influential on me who aren't strength coaches were Bill Parcells, Dick Vermeil, and Lou Carnesecca at St. John's. And they were all really strong family-type people in regards to caring about their teams. I think they're all very smart, all very wise in their own way. No disrespect to Coach Vermeil, who I think is just brilliant, and Coach Carnesecca. Coach Parcells is a very smart gentleman, but he's probably one of the wisest-- if you know the difference between intelli-- one of the wisest men, if not the wisest man, I've ever met. And they all give you just a tremendous amount of perspective in situations that does carry over to business. Because you're still working with a team. It's just a different type of team.

Right. Right, right. No, that's huge. I think that's, too, a lot-- when people will talk about doing sales or selling, and they say, "Well, I want to coach. I don't want to sell things." But you're selling to the sport coaches and the administrators and all of those. How do you develop those kind of relationships, too, with like-- as well as the business people, but the other sport coaches that you may not have known ahead of time.

Yeah. I think people are people, and you just treat them well. And I think people, you want to be a friend with them. I think confrontation is good if it's done properly, because I think people deserve to know if they need to get better and not be surprised that all of a sudden, "Why didn't you tell me this earlier?" I think with players, I think players look for discipline. I really do. I think you hear a lot of things about, "Oh, kids don't care nowadays." And I don't think that's true. I really do. I think kids, they want to be coached. I think they want to have some form of discipline. I'm not saying you've got to crack a whip, but I just think it's the general-- I don't think much has changed. I'll be honest with you. And I don't think I'm naive in that. So I take those same things in business as well. Just treat people well.

Yeah. Oh, I agree. I think it's funny because we'll say, "Oh, kids are so different." And this and that. And it's like, well, the kids of today were brought up by us, right? These people weren't brought up by some aliens that ran in. So if there's something wrong with them, it's kind of our fault, or somebody's fault. So that's always an interesting one.

Yeah. I heard an interesting line, that kids didn't change. The parents did.

Yeah. Totally.

Yeah.

So, great. Yeah, I think that's a great point about just still having expectations of people and holding them to different standards.

I think you also have to hold people accountable. Right? Because if they're going to get away with not doing their job, then why should they do their job, right? And so I think accountability, a professional accountability, is very important as well.

Yeah. That's huge. I think that goes right along the lines of that. And I was talking about, in the intern presentation that we had earlier, was just telling people what their feedback is. So I think in today's day and age a lot of times people, for whatever reason, haven't gotten-- no one maybe told them that they weren't that great or gave them a low evaluation, or gave them a low score. Just always said, "Good job," this and that, and, "You're great," and this and that. And so then I've had some hard conversations with younger coaches, because when I let them know that, it was like, wow. It shattered them almost. They didn't realize, because no one ever told them that they weren't that good at their job before.

Right. And it's better that they're told then than at the end of the year or whenever it is, you say, "Listen, I have to let you go." And then they're just blindsided in that aspect. "What do you mean, you have to let me go? You've never told me these things before."

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So at least if you tell them, you're giving them a chance, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Part of the whole coaching process. Absolutely. You won the NSCA President's Award in 1998. Talk a little bit about that award.

I just, you know, Don Chu is a very good friend. He was the president at the time. I did a lot of work with the Certification Commission, and I guess Don felt due to my work with the Certification Commission, and eventually I chaired it, I was deserving of the award. So I was very appreciative of it.

It's huge. Yeah. There's not a lot of people that won that. That's exciting. Yeah, maybe talk a little bit-- I mean, we talked a little bit about this kind of involvement from attending conference standpoint, but talk about being involved with the NSCA organization as a volunteer member and how you got involved doing that, all the different positions you've held, and why it's been important to your career.

Yeah. Don is the one that got me involved the Certification Commission, because he's the executive chair, and this is back in the 90s. And as I said, I'm a very academic person. I believe coaching-- you need to know the science, but you have to have a reason why you're doing something, but obviously it's definitely an art and a wisdom as well. The combination of both. And so with my affinity to academics, I wanted to help with this, you know, CSCS exams and reading materials and review stuff. And so it was very enjoyable for me because I met people like Tom Beckley and Garhammer and a bunch of great people, legends in the field. Develop relationships with them, work with them, and then do that in an academic environment, which I have an affinity towards. And so it was tremendous with regards to feeling you achieved something for the organization and the relationships and the friendships you developed. That snowballs, too, right? Because then someone knows someone else, who knows someone else. It's like they say. So it's been tremendous. I would advise anybody to get involved with some type of committee or something with the NSCA.

It's a huge way to build your network in a whole other realm of building it. Yeah.

I will tell you this, too. When we go back to the business questions, it's all about relationships. So if you want to go into business, you better have a lot of good relationships.

Yeah. Yeah. And I know when I first came to some NSCA conference, I kind of met people that just kind of said, "Hey, you should come do this with us." Or "Come hang out at this thing." And it was like, these types of things that we're seeing now as we're here kind of upon lunch time, where people are just out in the hallway and mingling around, and going out to dinner at night with people. That was as valuable as some of the content that you are being able to get in the sessions.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because you don't know who knows who. And if you're looking for a job, you may have dinner with someone, they say, "I need someone just like you." And all of a sudden you have an internship, you have a job. You maybe didn't-- you never thought about going for an advanced degree in a certain area, and after that conversation you're applying. So again, just a lot of positive things to come out of developing relationships.

Yeah, it's huge. And you're speaking at-- how many times speaking at a national conference is this, off the top of your head?

This conference?

Yeah.

Probably eighth or ninth. Yeah.

Eighth or ninth. Cool.

Eight, nine, ten. Something like that. Yeah.

And you guys are talking about hamstring injuries. What kind of stuff are you going to get into in your session?

I'm going to get into hamstring injury and ACLs, because one of the grafts some people use is a hamstring graft, and how that affects performance after ACL even after they're discharged from therapy. And as far as hamstring injury, mechanisms of injury, what to look for, and then the process of rehab. But then once you're done with rehab, probably some thoughts on how to continue to train so that you avoid a re-injury.

Cool. And so coming from your experience right now, too, with your background and what you do now, what sort of recommendations would you have for people who, if they're getting an athlete like that sent to them, how should they be communicating? Or is there any things that you think that coaches could do a better job of with communicating with the sports meds folks?

Yeah. But I think that's a two-way street now. I travel around the country, and I think there's more too often-- I mean, one place is too many, right? I just think there's not a great communication between staffs in some sort of situations. And I've never understood that, because I get it in regards to, someone's got to be in charge. And maybe that's the definitive factor. But the head strength coach and the strength staff does not want to be the head athletic trainer or the athletic training staff, and I'm sure it's vice versa. And the team physician doesn't want to be the head strength coach or the head trainer, so what's the problem? If we're really there for the benefit of the athlete, let's work together for the benefit of the athlete.

I've gone through physical therapy school. I know it's changed since I've gone through it, and the same thing with an ATC curriculum. You don't get the materials and experiences you do as a strength coach, just like the strength coach doesn't get the rehab. You go to a course for a week an it doesn't make you an expert, right? And so there's so much. Like, for hamstrings, a strength and conditioning coach could provide a physical therapist or an athletic trainer with a great variation of running progressions that I'm sure they're not familiar with prior to full all-out sprinting. And on the medical end, if you've got to modify them, you're smart enough. You'll modify them. But why not take that information? Because I'm fairly confident in the medical profession they're not getting running progressions. They're not getting Olympic lifting, and progressions to teach an Olympic lift, and why it's important in rehab to develop greater force production and power output. So work together, learn these progressions, and take these modifications. Because if you do them in rehab, the athlete's going to be so much further along by the time the strength coaches get them, right? So it's a shame where it doesn't work. And where it does work, I think they have a distinct advantage over the competition.

Yeah. No, that's such a great point. Like you said, it goes right back to the key tenet, which was relationship-building.

It's relationship-building. Yeah.

Yeah. What kind of information-- now, at this point, you're so kind of far advanced in your career, where and how are you getting information and utilizing it from these days?

Mostly one-on-one and reading. I like to read a lot. Medical journals, physical therapy journals, rehab, strength and conditioning. But I like to go to this. I'm at a point in my career, and I'm not saying this to make a cocky statement, I just think I'm a point in my career where I know what I want. And so I try to find the individual who's the expert in that topic or that field and go directly to them, versus going to a particular course where one person may speak on that topic. I like coming to NSCA, I like going to physical therapy conferences. I do like those things. But if I really want to know something, I don't think there is anything like visiting the person and spending a day one-on-one, if you want to talk about density, so to speak, right?

Yeah. For sure. No. Totally. And it's funny. It kind of goes right back to the stuff that you were doing back in the 80s, with how you got--

That's how we got in.

--around and met people. Yeah.

Because there was no internet. Right.

Even with all the stuff that we have available to us. Yeah. What's next this year? You got any other speaking gigs coming up?

Next week I'm speaking in Chicago for USA Weightlifting. In the fall, a couple of sports medicine conferences, and then a physical therapy conference at the end of the year.

Right. What are you talking to USA Weightlifting about? Just for their coach symposium thing they're doing?

For the coaching symposium. Yeah. So the joints most frequently injured are the back, the knee, and the shoulder. So I'm just going to go over some things for back, knee, and shoulder. Again, progressions of when they're done with rehab. Because they're strength coaches. They're not going to really get involved-- or they're Olympic weightlifting coaches. They're not going to get involved too much in the rehab. But things to look out for. And maybe a safer progression, so there's not a re-occurrence of the injury. But those types of things. Yeah.

Very cool. Well, this has been great. If people are more interested in some of the stuff we've been talking about and want to get in touch with you, how can people reach out to you?

They can email me at RPanariello, P as in Peter, A-N-A-R-I-E-L-L-O @professionalPT, as in physical therapy, .com.

Outstanding. We'll put all of that in the show notes. We'll be sure to include your bio and give your email out. So, appreciate you being on the show.

Scott, I really-- a pleasure. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Looking forward to hearing your session later today, too.

All right. Thank you.

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